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I initially commented on this in the General Discussion board, about what music you won't touch, but I thought I would pose this questions to folks on the "proper" board. I am curious to hear other member's thoughts.
vinyldisc Wrote:if they start sampling polka, i will not be a fan of that either. i like actual musicians. call me crazy.
Good point made Vinyldisc.
So, I thought this begs the question:
Since the music behind rap is mainly sampling of other material, then are rappers "actual musicians"?
Lyracists .. yes .. but musicians .. ??
Just a thought. : :
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To be blunt it appears to me you do not understand rap music. It is not the "lyricist" as you call the rapper (or MC) who makes the non-vocal part of the music. Well, sometimes but usually not. That is the role of the producer. Sometimes the producer uses a sample for the hook or chorus of the song. But not always. It is something that makes rap stand out from other forms of popular music. But other musicians borrow hooks and riffs from other songs all the time. It may be a little less obvious because it is not a direct copy.
The reason why samples are so prevalent in rap music is because of how it got started. It wasn't meant to be recorded. It was a DJ taking two records, playing only the breaks, and making new music from this. Then a rapper might add their own original rhymes over the top. It was a live event. A party. Then when songs were recorded they were made almost entirely from samples, with perhaps a programmed drum pattern added. Using samples goes in and out of favor. Sometimes rap music is made entirely from live (in the studio) instruments.
Some people misunderstand samples. A sample is usually not simply a snippet of the original song. A skilled producer takes that sample and stretches it, compresses it, changes the pitch, etc. They put it into a new context which completely changes how the listener perceives it. Very often samples become unrecognizable from their original use.
I'm beginning to write an essay here so I'll cut myself off. I feel that people who criticize rap with statements like "it is not music" are ignorant. I'm trying to educate.
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I openly admit I do not understand rap. That 's why I posed this question here. :coffee:
BUT, I do fully understand the job of a producer, and samples, and that countless of artists use samples in other genres. I wasn't asking WHO was responsible for the "no vocal" parts of rap music, I was looking for thoughts on the premise that rappers are not "musicians". Only because, for the most part, it's their rhymes (lyrics) .. put to samples and other backing tracks (or to put it simply, someone else's melody). Just as in any genre where an artist's "instrument" may be their voice and they may not actually "play" an instrument. Are they .. then .. a "vocalist"? A talented song writer puts some amazing lyrics down on paper, then hands those lyrics to someone else to write the melody, that person is classified as a "lyricists" .. and so on ...
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Music is a totally subjective term... As is art in general. I like rap and I think that making creative new compositions musique concrete style with the work of others is pretty cool. It's a tradition prevalent in old school Stockhausen style electronic music and he was a composer of "classical" music... It's also prevalent in the work of old school industrial music. Besides, a lot of great artists think the term "musician" is pretentious and outdated... Namely Brian Eno, and his output is undeniably important (in my eyes, anyway). Whether they're musicians or not, I enjoy their output and will listen to it for my enjoyment and see merit in it as well.
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trbc08 Wrote:Music is a totally subjective term... As is art in general. I like rap and I think that making creative new compositions musique concrete style with the work of others is pretty cool. It's a tradition prevalent in old school Stockhausen style electronic music and he was a composer of "classical" music... It's also prevalent in the work of old school industrial music. Besides, a lot of great artists think the term "musician" is pretentious and outdated... Namely Brian Eno, and his output is undeniably important (in my eyes, anyway). Whether they're musicians or not, I enjoy their output and will listen to it for my enjoyment and see merit in it as well.
Oh I agree completely, it's the output that matters, and if it pleases you, then that's all that matters. I only found it curious to discuss since it was implied rap artists are not "real" musicians. :coffee:
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Okay, I understand a little more what you (Palmer) are saying. You're not questioning if rap is "real" music but if a rapper, the one who performs the vocals of rap, is a musician? I guess that begs the question, is a singer a musician? Is the voice an instrument? I think so.
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Oh no Jon, I would never imply that rap isn't "real" music. It is. Just as any genre is "real" music. And though I am not a fan of the genre, and will admit I know little about it, I am a sucker for great words and I do enjoy many of the rhymes rappers give us.
Music is subjective, just like any art form .. it gives each person what they need from it, and I think that's one of the best things about it. :coffee:
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Rap is one of the genres with which I feel the least empathy.
I don't dismiss it entirely since the dozen or so rap albums I'm familiar with are enjoyable, it just isn't going to become my fave style overnight.
I still think it fully qualifies as music, and I'd go further and say that it's art !!
The arguments against the lack of "proper" musicians are just vacuous.
If you don't like rap, don't listen !!
Peace !!
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When it comes to rap you have to take it for more than what it is, fair enough you have Millions and Millions of people trying to be rappers with lyrics like "i have a gun so i'll shoot you", but the whole point of rapping is an art, you don't call a poet a 'poetic rapper' because that's not what they are. You don't call an artist a 'painting rapper' again because that's not what they are.
Musician means a whole lot of different things when it comes down to it, Musician means they write their own songs or the make their own music.
They say Britney Spears is a musician because she sings yet she doesn't write her own lyrics or make her own music.
Just because rappers have a reputation doesn't make them any less of the musicians that they are :lol:
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I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you said Palmer. I can get rather defensive about two of my favorite genres of music - rap and electronic. They are both often misunderstood.
Edd- a musician does not have to be a songwriter. I'm not sure, but I think you're saying Britney Spears is not a musician because she doesn't write her own music. I disagree. The voice is an instrument, she performs with hers, and to me that makes her a musician. Now do I think she's good at it? No I do not.
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